Interview with an idol

I’m currently reading Sicker in the Head: More Conversations About Life and Comedy. I never got to interview my comedic idols on a high school radio station like Judd Apatow, or follow my favorite musicians on the road like Cameron Crowe, but I was lucky enough to grow up at a time where I had access to many written and recorded conversations with these artists. Over the past two decades I've ploughed through them almost compulsively to derive inspiration and quench my curiosity. So, if a young me did have the opportunity to engage with a major influence (or project a totally false amalgamation of them), it might go something like this…

C: Thank you so much for agreeing to talk with me today.

J: My pleasure. We're very formal.

C: I'm sorry.

J: No it's fine, it's professional, I wasn't sure what to expect.

C: I'm a little in my head. Not just because it's you, but my friend Ryan would hate this.

J: Why would your friend Ryan hate this?

C: Well, that it's overly sentimental. Too earnest. I can be too earnest. And it's weird, because that's something I like about myself, that I really want people to know how strongly I feel about them or about whatever, but I also worry that it's like, off-putting? Okay I can't believe that I finally get to talk to you and I'm unloading like you're my therapist.

J: Hey, the conversation is gonna be what it's gonna be! I like when it finds itself naturally.

C: That's obviously a huge reason why I love your work. You expose the reality of what it's like to have all of these thoughts and feelings. It's amazing to see someone express it so articulately.

J: Thank you. I don't always think it comes across exactly how I mean it, but if there's a kernel I can pull out that makes something else go, "Oh huh, that's something I've felt so many times but never really understood it until you put it like that." then I consider it a success.

C: Totally. In that case you've had a streak of successes because I always think that when I'm ingesting your content. "Ingesting" sorry that sounds gross.

J: It did, kind of. Like I'm force-feeding you my movies. Which I am, I guess. I do hate that part about it. I cut you off didn't I?

C: What? No, not at all. What part do you hate about it?

J: Just that, when I make something, I pour all of myself into it and edit and refine it until it feels relatively presentable, until I'm happy with it I guess, but then I have to convince other people that it's good enough to spend their time on. The marketing, the selling of it all. With how much content is out there now, it's really hard to be like, "hey, if you only have time to watch one thing this weekend, it should be my thing."

C: But you're not talking to everyone, right? Like not every movie is going to be for everyone. But for the people who do want to experience what you've made, it's nice to see someone believing in themselves. Seeing someone who not only reached within themselves to pull out this scramble of feelings and make something tangible and coherent out of it, but be brave enough to proudly show it off.

J: Yeah that confidence grows. I do have more of it than I used to. Or not necessarily. I did have confidence early on, but my work wasn't as good as it became, when I understood myself more. So now I have more trust in what I'm putting out there.

C: Is that something you were aware of as it was happening? Did you like, see it in real time, when you were starting to find your voice and develop your style or do you look back now and go, "Oh that's where things started to change."

J: I don't think you really can see it as it's happening, because you're in it and you're so close to it. Or if you think you're recognizing some sort of development, it might not be what's actually happening, because you can't know that til later. Did I answer your question? That kind of sounded like I was trying to explain the plot to Inception, which I don't even fully get.

C: No it did! That's just another way that like you get the way my brain works. I have this weird thing where I overthink so much and I worry and I also listen to so, so many interviews that I try to assess and course-correct my life as it's happening. The way you're talking now about your early career and past self, I try to look at my life at this stage and be like, "hmm what am I going to regret in 20 years or wish I did differently? What can I address now so that doesn't happen?" Which obviously ain't the way it works, sweetheart.

J: No, unfortunately not the way it works. There was a lot that I thought I knew back then too. One was I thought doing things alone was my thing, like a strength. Which it can be, of course. But it was a couple things, me not knowing how to ask for help, not wanting to let people in until I felt ready to be vulnerable, and the stubbornness of, I don't need help because if I look hard enough I have everything I need already.

C: That last part is kind've great though. Isn't that what we're all reaching for? Like in meditation and mindfulness, that everything you need is already within?

J: To an extent, yeah, for sure. I think I meant as more of, beating my head against a door until it opened instead of like, reaching to find a key. I burnt myself out by trying to do everything alone, when that's not how it works. It's all a relationship between what you have and what you know, and receiving external help or guidance to move forward.

C: Right, like therapy? When you say something out loud to new ears you suddenly see it in a totally different way.

J: Yes, I remember locking myself in my room and working on scripts for hours and days on end. And this isn't a brag, like oh look at me I'm so committed to my craft. I was committed but I don't think it needed to take that long or break my brain that much. Because sometimes I'd bounce around an idea with a friend when I finally got out and went to dinner or coffee or something, and in five minutes I would have clarity on the thing that had been killing me.

C: It's such a vicious cycle! Because you have to then go back into your brain to implement those epiphanies and you get sucked back into the, "I can do this, I can figure it out, I just need to try harder." Whenever I'm having a problem and I think to myself "I just need to think about it harder" that's usually the red flag where I'm like, uh oh time to come out of the cocoon.

J: That's some very good self-awareness.

C: Oh I don't always do it, that's for sure.

J: (laughs) At least the intention is there.

C: That's a great segue for me, because I want to ask about your intentions for what you write. Do you set out with a theme or message in mind or do you kind of find it as you go? One aspect I love about your stuff is the feeling of loneliness that you capture. Or what it's like to be alone with yourself. It's not always a bad thing, it's both sweet and painful the way you depict it.

J: Well what we were just talking about, doing things on my own, I think I was really lonely a lot of the time and didn't realize that's what it was. I just got used to it. It was something that felt out of my control. I was someone who, people thought I had my shit together, so they never really offered me help. They're like, that guy's fine. He knows what he's doing and he's doing just fine. Secretly I was like, "please help me, I am so uncertain about all of this all the time."

C: Do you consider yourself a perfectionist?

J: Absolutely. That word's kind of broad now, like "Do you like The Office?" Ya, I like The Office, so does everyone else. It doesn't set you apart. But I do think I experienced it very purely where I thought if I showed a crack I was done for. Which is weird because my writing was all about showing the cracks within myself, but that felt like a separate idea. The me in my life had to uphold this veneer of perfection even if the material was like "Hey look, I'm fucked up."

C: You were actively rebelling against that inner critic or voice, but in a controlled environment.

J: Yes, I created environments where I could unleash the havoc of my mind and be respected. (laughs)

C: I love that.

J: You get it.

C: I do but I'm conflicted. It's a point of pride for me but I'm almost resentful of it. People call me perfect a lot, which I absolutely hate because of how much pressure it puts on, but at the same time I want to prove them right. Yes, I am perfect. I can do it. I can achieve perfection. So toxic.

J: It's brutal. And we're rational people, we know it's not possible. It's all that black and white thinking you have to constantly battle. The Grey, it's not just a movie with Liam Neeson.

C: I never saw it.

J: You don't need to, I just like the thought of Liam Neeson being in a movie called The Grey, which stands for all the middle ground that we should be striving for. Even after all his bad movies, I still look to him as a wise figure. Like Gandalf.

C: Someone heard you say that and now a Lord of the Rings reboot is in the works.

J: That was already happening without my input.

C: True. So I love the fact that I'm able to ask you questions here, but I'd kick myself if I didn't really take a minute to just tell you how much your work means to me. This is the part my friend Ryan would hate.

J: Ryan, skip over this part. Or actually, no. Ryan I want you to hear how much I mean to your friend Cara.

C: This is the part that's... well I'll get to that, but this is the part that's hard. Because I don't fully know how to explain it yet. But in my dark times, you were like an antidote to the thing I couldn't seem to put my finger on. I say dark times, they were the moments or days when depression or fear would creep in and take hold. When you want to drink or eat or escape in some way to avoid confronting yourself. I'd get stuck in that and lose sight of what I knew deep down to be true about myself and my life, that I was okay and didn't need to run from these feelings. No matter how much I learned or grew, every so often I'd still slip into it, which, that's the perfectionism talking because of course we still have hard times even after we've healed somewhat. All of this to say, when I didn't know what the hell to do because I was so overwhelmed and confused, I would sit down with your books or your movies and everything made sense again. I could see myself again. Because I could see myself in what you made. It spoke to everything I want to point myself towards.

J: That's a lot. That's like, the most you can hope for. And that's exactly why I did it, why I do it. It's comfort for me, when I feel like that. That's why I can't acknowledge it as a selfless act, because I need to do it, and then if it connects with someone else that's such a bonus.

C: It doesn't need to be a selfless act to be generous. It's still a gift. We all just want to be understood, and you've found a way to understand yourself.

J: It's all a process. It's why it never feels finished, of course. Like you turn over one rock, but then there's another and another. And then you look back and one of the rocks has been turned back over, so you have to go back. God, this whole "being a human" business is exhausting, isn't it.

C: So much fun! It does feel like a puzzle. But that's why I'm so curious about people like you, because I feel like you've cracked it. You've taken this shapeless, boundless emotion or concept and turned it into something real. I want to be able to do that. I kind've just feel like I'm swimming in them right now. Everything slips through my fingers. I get discouraged about it.

J: You shouldn't be discouraged about it. I mean, of course I understand why, and I do too, but if you have the drive to want to figure those things out, you're closer than you think. I would say, if I can give you advice, don't look at it like, "What's the best way to get all of this out? The best way to express my unique perspective." Because I think that's too daunting. You have no way of knowing that until you get in there and wrestle around a bit. You have to give yourself freedom to try things. Those things might not always pay off, and that's fine. That's part of finding the good stuff, is getting the wrong stuff out of the way. Not that there's really a right and wrong, but you know what I mean. What feels right to you. One of the best pieces of advice I got was that you'll never get anywhere if you think you have to be fully prepared before you take the first step. If you think you have to be ready first. You're not going to be ready. You have to just start moving, and when you're in it, that's where you find the answers, or at least the path forward. Just keep moving.

C: That's helpful. Scary, but freeing. And someone did give you advice it seems!

J: Oh yes, it didn't come easy but I definitely got some gems along the way, by being persistent. Which is just another term for "annoying".

C: And now you've given me advice. I must not look like I have my shit together.

J: Ya, I see someone really struggling, thought I'd throw you a life raft.

C: I appreciate it.

J: I'm kidding. I'll probably work for you someday. Please give me a job when I'm 80 but can't retire because I never developed any hobbies other than this.